Room crashed end of race 3 (didn't count)
Room crash
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Room crashed end of race 3 (didn't count)
Room crash
I have some stuff I feel like I need to bring up about this match. I just needed some time to reflect because I didn't feel it was the right time to do it right after the match.
I'm really happy we won, because I feel like this would've come across as a salt post had we not. The truth is, I was going to post it regardless because I feel like this match was just borderline illegitimate. It mainly had to do with the lag in the room.
The universal ruleset has a section about lag, and staff can have discretion about how to handle it (and penalize if need be). But watching this war made me feel like there isn't enough to properly understand situations. I feel like the staff would never enact a lag penalty or replaying of a race unless they had absolutely no other choice.
For context, in race 3 of this war, we played rMP. It was a full race that was completed seemingly without issue (correct me if I'm wrong on this). At the end of the race, we had the error where the race results were clearly not going to show, because someone in the room was causing an issue. We had the top 2 locked, and none of us placed in the bottom 3. I don't remember the spots for certain, but I think everyone got their positions. At worst, this was a +16 race, and I think it was better than that. But it didn't count, because of how the rules are right now. It felt like injustice, because we literally knew what happened. It made me think if a team is able to recover every position they got (maybe via clip rule or something), then the result should stand. But of course, this brings up some other issues (what if the opponents don't know who got what for their indivs, or perhaps they claim the same spot that the opponents got). In the 2nd situation, nobody would be able to claim who got what spot. Lag causes weird things to happen. Still, it feels like this race should've counted to me. Not by rule, but by what feels right. We knew what happened.
There was another problematic race later, on Tokyo Blur. This race was one where we controlled the front early, and ARC pulled off a very solid shock around the end of lap 2 that left us in a tough spot. However, this wasn't a guaranteed loss. On lap 3, one of the players on ARC was warping on our screens, and it was causing the item wheel to lag. We couldn't get items in a timely manner, and as a result, it made any chance of a comeback effectively zero. We had to end up taking a fat L on that race, one where there was actually lag effecting the item wheel. The problem fixed itself, and by rule, Tokyo Blur counted and Music Park did not. I don't know if there was set lag on Music Park, maybe there was, but none of our team noticed any lag until after we crossed the line. From our perspective, Music Park felt like a more legitimate race. It felt completely BS that Tokyo Blur would be upheld and that Music Park would not, and the swing was that of at least 30 points. ARC played well in GP3, but it legitimately felt like we should be playing a tied war going into race 12, not one down 30. I was pretty emo because I knew I'd just be salty on the thread. In reality, I think we really should have more discussions about rules though. Nothing would've ever be switched for this match because rules are rules. But at the very least when something goes wrong, it can spark discussions and hopefully prevent issues like this from happening again. I do think we should analyze what constitutes a legitimate race though. There are some problems with my logic too. If someone would be able to figure out how to create roulette lag, anyone could do it when their team is in a bind. It's really hard to think about.
Anyways, the new race 12 was practically a miracle race for us. Ironically, if rMP counted, maybe we would've lost the war. If you replaced dNBC with rMP, it would have. But even despite the results going our way, I cannot help but feel like the match felt wrong, and I don't like that feeling. I don't know if there are any proposed solutions that would be better. I feel like roulette lag kind of delegitimizes races. In this case though, we would've had evidence that we weren't the ones causing it at least, but it could still open up some problems if anyone found a way to intentionally do it. So I don't know. Responses would be appreciated because I'm just lost on where to go with this but I definitely don't think what happened should be ignored just because we ended up getting the win
I'm really happy we won, because I feel like this would've come across as a salt post had we not. The truth is, I was going to post it regardless because I feel like this match was just borderline illegitimate. It mainly had to do with the lag in the room.
The universal ruleset has a section about lag, and staff can have discretion about how to handle it (and penalize if need be). But watching this war made me feel like there isn't enough to properly understand situations. I feel like the staff would never enact a lag penalty or replaying of a race unless they had absolutely no other choice.
For context, in race 3 of this war, we played rMP. It was a full race that was completed seemingly without issue (correct me if I'm wrong on this). At the end of the race, we had the error where the race results were clearly not going to show, because someone in the room was causing an issue. We had the top 2 locked, and none of us placed in the bottom 3. I don't remember the spots for certain, but I think everyone got their positions. At worst, this was a +16 race, and I think it was better than that. But it didn't count, because of how the rules are right now. It felt like injustice, because we literally knew what happened. It made me think if a team is able to recover every position they got (maybe via clip rule or something), then the result should stand. But of course, this brings up some other issues (what if the opponents don't know who got what for their indivs, or perhaps they claim the same spot that the opponents got). In the 2nd situation, nobody would be able to claim who got what spot. Lag causes weird things to happen. Still, it feels like this race should've counted to me. Not by rule, but by what feels right. We knew what happened.
There was another problematic race later, on Tokyo Blur. This race was one where we controlled the front early, and ARC pulled off a very solid shock around the end of lap 2 that left us in a tough spot. However, this wasn't a guaranteed loss. On lap 3, one of the players on ARC was warping on our screens, and it was causing the item wheel to lag. We couldn't get items in a timely manner, and as a result, it made any chance of a comeback effectively zero. We had to end up taking a fat L on that race, one where there was actually lag effecting the item wheel. The problem fixed itself, and by rule, Tokyo Blur counted and Music Park did not. I don't know if there was set lag on Music Park, maybe there was, but none of our team noticed any lag until after we crossed the line. From our perspective, Music Park felt like a more legitimate race. It felt completely BS that Tokyo Blur would be upheld and that Music Park would not, and the swing was that of at least 30 points. ARC played well in GP3, but it legitimately felt like we should be playing a tied war going into race 12, not one down 30. I was pretty emo because I knew I'd just be salty on the thread. In reality, I think we really should have more discussions about rules though. Nothing would've ever be switched for this match because rules are rules. But at the very least when something goes wrong, it can spark discussions and hopefully prevent issues like this from happening again. I do think we should analyze what constitutes a legitimate race though. There are some problems with my logic too. If someone would be able to figure out how to create roulette lag, anyone could do it when their team is in a bind. It's really hard to think about.
Anyways, the new race 12 was practically a miracle race for us. Ironically, if rMP counted, maybe we would've lost the war. If you replaced dNBC with rMP, it would have. But even despite the results going our way, I cannot help but feel like the match felt wrong, and I don't like that feeling. I don't know if there are any proposed solutions that would be better. I feel like roulette lag kind of delegitimizes races. In this case though, we would've had evidence that we weren't the ones causing it at least, but it could still open up some problems if anyone found a way to intentionally do it. So I don't know. Responses would be appreciated because I'm just lost on where to go with this but I definitely don't think what happened should be ignored just because we ended up getting the win
rMP felt normal for us (well me, can't speak for everyone) then two Waluigi's were just not moving at all at the end (Not sure if I've ever been on the good side of one of these prior). The lag rules are tough because it's really rare a penalty gets applied and with all of the different contexts and sometimes it's not easy to tell who is. We have definitely lost multiple league matches over lag anomalies over the years and nothing has been able to be done about it and it's pretty frustrating.
Having a consistent system for lag issues seems tough though and would be a good thing if we could get something as well. There are so many different situations for example times I've had my item box lagging and one player warping on my screen but it isn't happening on anyone else's screen so it's only 1/11 other races getting affected. It's also a concern to not open the floodgates for everyone trying to penalize any lag they see based on a precedent of a certain issue being penalized in one context but not another.
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I just think if a race is impacted by roulette lag races typically shouldn't count. Maybe if there's evidence that the other team caused it, there could be a change or something.
Would need to argue what the definition of impact is, or if any qualifies. There will probably be many different definitions among people but it would be a good thing to have. I can recall 3 league matches off the top of my mind we have lost from items lagging and nothing was even looked at. I know others have as well but there are so many factors to consider if it would be "impactful" enough.
It would be great if an agreed-upon exhaustive list that leaves minimal to no gray area exists for future seasons but I'm not sure if that would be attainable. Worth a shot though. I already feel bad for certain teams that basically would need to retire already if that happened cause would get penalized every war lmao.
i’m not planning to change this result (both teams agreed on the result when it was posted, and room crashes/roulette lag are just a part of the game). i did want to touch on the suggestion of throwing out races with game-impacting lag - in all my time as mku staff, the amount of times we have actually applied a penalty for lag is very low. this is because it’s inherently subjective. who did the lag actually benefit? who caused it? what’s the line between acceptable lag and game breaking lag?
if we apply a new “lag rule” as strictly as possible, we would restart races the second that roulette lag appears. think about how often this actually happens in short bursts - there would be multiple room resets in a very large fraction of wars. if instead, we apply discretion to when roulette lag is game breaking, then of course we run into the subjectivity problem. we also need to start coordinating forced room resets midwar, which i frankly do not trust everyone (especially newer players) to do effectively.
should an ideal competitive war be lag-free? yeah. is that possible? not without making major sacrifices that (imo) kinda ruin the fun in the first place.
just my two cents
if we apply a new “lag rule” as strictly as possible, we would restart races the second that roulette lag appears. think about how often this actually happens in short bursts - there would be multiple room resets in a very large fraction of wars. if instead, we apply discretion to when roulette lag is game breaking, then of course we run into the subjectivity problem. we also need to start coordinating forced room resets midwar, which i frankly do not trust everyone (especially newer players) to do effectively.
should an ideal competitive war be lag-free? yeah. is that possible? not without making major sacrifices that (imo) kinda ruin the fun in the first place.
just my two cents
I understand the frustration with lag we have to remember that this game is a) online with players internationally and b) roulette lag affects everyone, not just one team. There will be situations in which it'll have a negative impact on your team, as well as having a positive impact for your team, there is no way to control that. Unfortunately, there's not really anything that can be done about this unless we (as staff) want to go down the rabbit hole that MKW went down when trolling and bagging rules were implemented -- everything becoming subjective evaluating each situation case by case without having an objective way to differentiate one case from the others (I'll try to elaborate on a solution towards the end of the post for at least the position ending room crash, but I don't see an objective way to have the item roulette lag races being fair in terms of them counting or not counting).
rMP felt fine for me and it was unfortunate that we had to reset it but these cases can't be done intentionally by anyone, nor is it anyones fault if it happens. I had a lounge event this morning where race 1 I got 1st on dEA but it didn't count because someone dc'd at the start of the race and it didn't go through. Unfortunately, since the results didn't load then it couldn't have counted. Now, I am fine with agreeing to different solutions that could be thought of for these types of situations. One of them that you mentioned in your main post where the case where everyone on a single team crosses the line and can provide a clip proof uploaded to twitter where it shows the position given to them at the end of the race after crossing the line (like Cynda would be given 2nd from the clip that was uploaded to show that he didn't close the room).
Tokyo Blur item roulette lag had a quite unfortunate situation for us, where a blue was thrown and the player in first lagged out and the blue split onto the guy in 2nd (who was us) and the blue targeted them. Fortunately for us, the player in 2nd had a shroom to dodge it but at the same time as the roulette lagging for you guys, there was (or potentially could have been) a negative impact for us. It goes both ways, it affects all players but if we had to reset every time there was a roulette lag, there could be matches where 1/4 of the races wouldn't be counting just because players are playing internationally.
Ironically, the war would have been a win for us if rMP counted (assuming that the dNBC race doesn't count and the timeline that would have happened after the rMP race was the same as the timeline that ended up happening (which means that dAC would have been race 4 then blevs race 5, etc)) since I remember us getting 3 4 7 in call (I was 4 and monfi beat me and I remember someone saying they finished 7th, anyways this is redundant since it doesn't matter anymore) and assuming the worst case where we ended up getting bot 3, it would have been a +20 race for you guys (at most) meaning that we would have won by at least 10. Regardless though, this isn't part of any point and this isn't the case since the results didn't load so I'm not using this to argue anything, just wanted to expand on the start of the last paragraph.
Now, it's annoying that races like rMP happen that can have an effect on the outcome, but I believe there could be some course of action that could happen:
1) The first thing to do would be if everyone on a single team can prove their spots, they are allowed to argue for the race to count. This can be done by uploading a clip to twitter or by clipping it from their stream / recording.
2) If not everyone in the team can prove their spot via in game video clipping, they may use another teammate's POV (whether it's from a clip or twitch) and it must be approved a staff member that is not on either team.
3) If none of the two situations are fulfilled (aka one team couldn't prove their spots) then the race does not count.
This would be approved since the position can be determined (determined by the game) after crossing the line.
This should be approved for Chibi since the position of Chibi (1st place) can be determined that he got first (crossed the line in first on Cynda's pov) (I understand that lag can occur that Chibi didn't actually finish in first but this should only be rebutted if someone on the opposing team can prove that they obtained 1st place instead of Chibi since it's from another players POV).
This is to avoid the cases where the results don't load, as well as the case where someone is stuck on the map and the host just closes the room mid race "because the race won't count" (this has happened before in scrims even if the race could have potentially gone through).
I'm fine with elaborating and trying to find some more solutions for these types of situations, but cases where item roulette lag occurs shouldn't really be up for discussion since people can't control it themselves and there isn't an objective way to handle how it impacts people and a reasoning behind not counting a race.
tl;dr lag sucks but we have to deal with it since we're playing internationally, but we can try to make sub-rules to diminish the outcome of matches when roulette lag / ending position room crash occurs as long as it's an objective rule
rMP felt fine for me and it was unfortunate that we had to reset it but these cases can't be done intentionally by anyone, nor is it anyones fault if it happens. I had a lounge event this morning where race 1 I got 1st on dEA but it didn't count because someone dc'd at the start of the race and it didn't go through. Unfortunately, since the results didn't load then it couldn't have counted. Now, I am fine with agreeing to different solutions that could be thought of for these types of situations. One of them that you mentioned in your main post where the case where everyone on a single team crosses the line and can provide a clip proof uploaded to twitter where it shows the position given to them at the end of the race after crossing the line (like Cynda would be given 2nd from the clip that was uploaded to show that he didn't close the room).
Tokyo Blur item roulette lag had a quite unfortunate situation for us, where a blue was thrown and the player in first lagged out and the blue split onto the guy in 2nd (who was us) and the blue targeted them. Fortunately for us, the player in 2nd had a shroom to dodge it but at the same time as the roulette lagging for you guys, there was (or potentially could have been) a negative impact for us. It goes both ways, it affects all players but if we had to reset every time there was a roulette lag, there could be matches where 1/4 of the races wouldn't be counting just because players are playing internationally.
Ironically, the war would have been a win for us if rMP counted (assuming that the dNBC race doesn't count and the timeline that would have happened after the rMP race was the same as the timeline that ended up happening (which means that dAC would have been race 4 then blevs race 5, etc)) since I remember us getting 3 4 7 in call (I was 4 and monfi beat me and I remember someone saying they finished 7th, anyways this is redundant since it doesn't matter anymore) and assuming the worst case where we ended up getting bot 3, it would have been a +20 race for you guys (at most) meaning that we would have won by at least 10. Regardless though, this isn't part of any point and this isn't the case since the results didn't load so I'm not using this to argue anything, just wanted to expand on the start of the last paragraph.
Now, it's annoying that races like rMP happen that can have an effect on the outcome, but I believe there could be some course of action that could happen:
1) The first thing to do would be if everyone on a single team can prove their spots, they are allowed to argue for the race to count. This can be done by uploading a clip to twitter or by clipping it from their stream / recording.
2) If not everyone in the team can prove their spot via in game video clipping, they may use another teammate's POV (whether it's from a clip or twitch) and it must be approved a staff member that is not on either team.
3) If none of the two situations are fulfilled (aka one team couldn't prove their spots) then the race does not count.
This is to avoid the cases where the results don't load, as well as the case where someone is stuck on the map and the host just closes the room mid race "because the race won't count" (this has happened before in scrims even if the race could have potentially gone through).
I'm fine with elaborating and trying to find some more solutions for these types of situations, but cases where item roulette lag occurs shouldn't really be up for discussion since people can't control it themselves and there isn't an objective way to handle how it impacts people and a reasoning behind not counting a race.
tl;dr lag sucks but we have to deal with it since we're playing internationally, but we can try to make sub-rules to diminish the outcome of matches when roulette lag / ending position room crash occurs as long as it's an objective rule
All 12 spots should be accounted for for a race to count imo, not just one team.I understand the frustration with lag we have to remember that this game is a) online with players internationally and b) roulette lag affects everyone, not just one team. There will be situations in which it'll have a negative impact on your team, as well as having a positive impact for your team, there is no way to control that. Unfortunately, there's not really anything that can be done about this unless we (as staff) want to go down the rabbit hole that MKW went down when trolling and bagging rules were implemented -- everything becoming subjective evaluating each situation case by case without having an objective way to differentiate one case from the others (I'll try to elaborate on a solution towards the end of the post for at least the position ending room crash, but I don't see an objective way to have the item roulette lag races being fair in terms of them counting or not counting).
rMP felt fine for me and it was unfortunate that we had to reset it but these cases can't be done intentionally by anyone, nor is it anyones fault if it happens. I had a lounge event this morning where race 1 I got 1st on dEA but it didn't count because someone dc'd at the start of the race and it didn't go through. Unfortunately, since the results didn't load then it couldn't have counted. Now, I am fine with agreeing to different solutions that could be thought of for these types of situations. One of them that you mentioned in your main post where the case where everyone on a single team crosses the line and can provide a clip proof uploaded to twitter where it shows the position given to them at the end of the race after crossing the line (like Cynda would be given 2nd from the clip that was uploaded to show that he didn't close the room).
Tokyo Blur item roulette lag had a quite unfortunate situation for us, where a blue was thrown and the player in first lagged out and the blue split onto the guy in 2nd (who was us) and the blue targeted them. Fortunately for us, the player in 2nd had a shroom to dodge it but at the same time as the roulette lagging for you guys, there was (or potentially could have been) a negative impact for us. It goes both ways, it affects all players but if we had to reset every time there was a roulette lag, there could be matches where 1/4 of the races wouldn't be counting just because players are playing internationally.
Ironically, the war would have been a win for us if rMP counted (assuming that the dNBC race doesn't count and the timeline that would have happened after the rMP race was the same as the timeline that ended up happening (which means that dAC would have been race 4 then blevs race 5, etc)) since I remember us getting 3 4 7 in call (I was 4 and monfi beat me and I remember someone saying they finished 7th, anyways this is redundant since it doesn't matter anymore) and assuming the worst case where we ended up getting bot 3, it would have been a +20 race for you guys (at most) meaning that we would have won by at least 10. Regardless though, this isn't part of any point and this isn't the case since the results didn't load so I'm not using this to argue anything, just wanted to expand on the start of the last paragraph.
Now, it's annoying that races like rMP happen that can have an effect on the outcome, but I believe there could be some course of action that could happen:
1) The first thing to do would be if everyone on a single team can prove their spots, they are allowed to argue for the race to count. This can be done by uploading a clip to twitter or by clipping it from their stream / recording.
2) If not everyone in the team can prove their spot via in game video clipping, they may use another teammate's POV (whether it's from a clip or twitch) and it must be approved a staff member that is not on either team.
3) If none of the two situations are fulfilled (aka one team couldn't prove their spots) then the race does not count.
This would be approved since the position can be determined (determined by the game) after crossing the line.
This should be approved for Chibi since the position of Chibi (1st place) can be determined that he got first (crossed the line in first on Cynda's pov) (I understand that lag can occur that Chibi didn't actually finish in first but this should only be rebutted if someone on the opposing team can prove that they obtained 1st place instead of Chibi since it's from another players POV).
This is to avoid the cases where the results don't load, as well as the case where someone is stuck on the map and the host just closes the room mid race "because the race won't count" (this has happened before in scrims even if the race could have potentially gone through).
I'm fine with elaborating and trying to find some more solutions for these types of situations, but cases where item roulette lag occurs shouldn't really be up for discussion since people can't control it themselves and there isn't an objective way to handle how it impacts people and a reasoning behind not counting a race.
tl;dr lag sucks but we have to deal with it since we're playing internationally, but we can try to make sub-rules to diminish the outcome of matches when roulette lag / ending position room crash occurs as long as it's an objective rule
I can't imagine it being a common scenario - where all 12 players in a league match would willingly provide proof of a race where results don't show - when half of them lose the race, if the alternative is to just not provide said proof and not have it count anyway. Also having the burden of proof be on one team is not always going to accurately be able to provide all 12 spots, unless people saying their spots for the other team is accepted as proof, but then that kinda feels like it defeats the purpose of requiring picture proof in the first place lol
Doesn't feel like a valid option to me but if there's a way to make it work somehow then who knows, I just can't see it
The point of one team providing their 6 positions is because all 12 players won't want to. The team that wins the race will obviously want to bring forward a case for their team to get the spots they got. If one team brings forward their 6 spots, they have all 12 spots since the other team just gets the other 6 spots. The only thing that stops it is individual points and well lol indivs aren't that important so just let the other team decide who got what spots. This at least allows the team that won the race to get the points
I understand everyone's points here. Like mentioned, I don't really have any proposals or solutions because of how there will be a frequent lack of objectivity. It makes this an almost unsolvable problem. But this is what I wanted to talk about to begin with, because I thi
I think this is the interesting bit of the discussion. When it comes to roulette lag, I think you can definitely make the case that it invalidates a race the second it happens. But as we know, this comes with its own set of problems. Because races up to the point of the roulette lag aren't equal opportunities - usually one team was pushing advantage. As someone from the other side, I don't think I could come up with a clear case that Tokyo Blur deserved to not count. The roulette lag made catching up not really possible for us when it otherwise could've been, but ARC still had the clear state of advantage here.
This is what I actually worry about. I'm not convinced that it couldn't be controlled. I think most teams play with honor, but there have been extreme rule manipulations I've seen before. One team back in MK7 tried frequently d/cing during race 1 of a GP if the start didn't go well for them because it would by rule cause a room reset. I don't know how the really weird lag in this game works to be honest with y'all. But I bet someone does.
My big thought here is that maybe you should only be able to contest a roulette lag result if there's 100% evidence that the opposing team is responsible for the lag. This way it would be certain that the accusers wouldn't be trying to gain an unfair advantage by finding a way to crash the room (who knows, maybe it could involve an undocked player just going as far a way from the router as possible without dcing lol)
It's worth noting also that as things are right now, we still aren't safe. If someone was able to figure out how to break rooms, they would consistently be able to negate good races. Obviously I don't think what happened on rMP was intentional, but it seems both teams agreed that the race appeared to be completely legitimate until after the line was crossed. As things stand right now, this could be manipulatable if teams couldn't protect the spots they got on a room crash.
Yeah, I did make sure to post that in the original post. Don't want to be just dense. I bring it up though not with the goal of flipping results though I guess you guys could. But it just creates an interesting situation where both sides could argue one thing.
Of the 3 races, which ones were the most legitimate?
You could easily claim all races should've counted: in this case, dNBC is discarded and that flips the result.
But when thinking about the most legitimate races, dNBC was technically played without issue. The debate then flips to rMP/Tokyo. Tokyo by our current rules, is actually what counted. This is what bothered me enough to consider putting up this post.
It's not that I think Tokyo = 100% not legitimate (as mentioned, there's a lot of subjectivity involved in a ruling like this). It's moreso that our current rules counts races like Tokyo, but not rMP. I think Tokyo Blur was way more impacted by lag than rMP was: rMP just didn't yield a results screen and Tokyo worked itself out. Going into race 12, it felt really bs because I knew our positive race wasn't counted, yet one that felt less legitimate was. I guess it was a blessing in disguise, but this feeling really just made me question everything.
This is interesting to me, because it's not really about room settings, but protecting races that could have been. But it's obviously complicated. Like, was the race played without lag? I do think something like this could work because of the following:
1) Even if another team doesn't want to give their spots, if one team can prove the 6 of theirs, we know what the others got. At that point we know the race score and the only thing that could be losts is indivs. But at that point the race result would stand. The only arguments to be had are within 1 team about who got what spot or that the opponents are lying. IMO, if one team gives proof of their spots, the only way to prove they're lying would be to upload proof of their own. I also don't think the indivs would need to be proven in this situation, they are less important than the match results.
2) This in particular wouldn't create more room resets, it would just protect legitimate spots that are obtained.
3) If there is lag in the roulette (usually common for these races) it's up to the opposing team to provide evidence of it. If they can't prove that, then it's likely they weren't even affected by it even if it did occur.
4) If the worry is intentionally causing these scenarios, it could be debated that if the player stuck on the minimap is on the team wanting the race to count, that it shouldn't count still maybe.
Yeah for this reason I worry about mandatory closure rules. But some of these races absolutely shouldn't count. This is why I think we should consider writing rules that don't allow people to break a room and then get these resets though. If the lag is genuine, then it's just tough luck then. Maybe it acts as incentive to get better internet, and maybe that could help decrease the occurrences of the problem.
I think this is the interesting bit of the discussion. When it comes to roulette lag, I think you can definitely make the case that it invalidates a race the second it happens. But as we know, this comes with its own set of problems. Because races up to the point of the roulette lag aren't equal opportunities - usually one team was pushing advantage. As someone from the other side, I don't think I could come up with a clear case that Tokyo Blur deserved to not count. The roulette lag made catching up not really possible for us when it otherwise could've been, but ARC still had the clear state of advantage here.
This is what I actually worry about. I'm not convinced that it couldn't be controlled. I think most teams play with honor, but there have been extreme rule manipulations I've seen before. One team back in MK7 tried frequently d/cing during race 1 of a GP if the start didn't go well for them because it would by rule cause a room reset. I don't know how the really weird lag in this game works to be honest with y'all. But I bet someone does.
My big thought here is that maybe you should only be able to contest a roulette lag result if there's 100% evidence that the opposing team is responsible for the lag. This way it would be certain that the accusers wouldn't be trying to gain an unfair advantage by finding a way to crash the room (who knows, maybe it could involve an undocked player just going as far a way from the router as possible without dcing lol)
It's worth noting also that as things are right now, we still aren't safe. If someone was able to figure out how to break rooms, they would consistently be able to negate good races. Obviously I don't think what happened on rMP was intentional, but it seems both teams agreed that the race appeared to be completely legitimate until after the line was crossed. As things stand right now, this could be manipulatable if teams couldn't protect the spots they got on a room crash.
Yeah, I did make sure to post that in the original post. Don't want to be just dense. I bring it up though not with the goal of flipping results though I guess you guys could. But it just creates an interesting situation where both sides could argue one thing.
Of the 3 races, which ones were the most legitimate?
You could easily claim all races should've counted: in this case, dNBC is discarded and that flips the result.
But when thinking about the most legitimate races, dNBC was technically played without issue. The debate then flips to rMP/Tokyo. Tokyo by our current rules, is actually what counted. This is what bothered me enough to consider putting up this post.
It's not that I think Tokyo = 100% not legitimate (as mentioned, there's a lot of subjectivity involved in a ruling like this). It's moreso that our current rules counts races like Tokyo, but not rMP. I think Tokyo Blur was way more impacted by lag than rMP was: rMP just didn't yield a results screen and Tokyo worked itself out. Going into race 12, it felt really bs because I knew our positive race wasn't counted, yet one that felt less legitimate was. I guess it was a blessing in disguise, but this feeling really just made me question everything.
This is interesting to me, because it's not really about room settings, but protecting races that could have been. But it's obviously complicated. Like, was the race played without lag? I do think something like this could work because of the following:
1) Even if another team doesn't want to give their spots, if one team can prove the 6 of theirs, we know what the others got. At that point we know the race score and the only thing that could be losts is indivs. But at that point the race result would stand. The only arguments to be had are within 1 team about who got what spot or that the opponents are lying. IMO, if one team gives proof of their spots, the only way to prove they're lying would be to upload proof of their own. I also don't think the indivs would need to be proven in this situation, they are less important than the match results.
2) This in particular wouldn't create more room resets, it would just protect legitimate spots that are obtained.
3) If there is lag in the roulette (usually common for these races) it's up to the opposing team to provide evidence of it. If they can't prove that, then it's likely they weren't even affected by it even if it did occur.
4) If the worry is intentionally causing these scenarios, it could be debated that if the player stuck on the minimap is on the team wanting the race to count, that it shouldn't count still maybe.
Yeah for this reason I worry about mandatory closure rules. But some of these races absolutely shouldn't count. This is why I think we should consider writing rules that don't allow people to break a room and then get these resets though. If the lag is genuine, then it's just tough luck then. Maybe it acts as incentive to get better internet, and maybe that could help decrease the occurrences of the problem.